A cry for help to other Druid Kitties out there.

My damage output on Hodir is just sucking.

I must be doing something wrong. Last nights results…

  • I was top 5 DPS on Razor while being responsible for the turrets (5.7Kdps)
  • #1 damage to Ignis @ 6.5Kdps
  • #1 on XT (of course) with 8.6Kdps
  • 2nd on Auriaya with 5.2Kdps (the tank died and guess who was next on the threat meter… 2 shot ftw… I need to lrn2meld faster)
  • 3rd on Assembly of Iron with 6.3Kdps
  • 4th on Mimiron with 5K dps (I started lagging real bad on this fight so my damage dropped a little).

Hodir results: 9th with 6.2Kdps and behind every rogue and other melee I believe. I had Storm Power 4 times to the top DPSing rogue who only had it 3, and I had more uptime on it as well. I got Freeze 3 times and Biting cold once… the top rogue got freeze 4 times and biting cold once. So I don’t think the disparity is due to buffs or debuffs. Keep in mind I was a good 400K damage behind the top rogues total.

I will say this after last night, I am a firm believer in the FBN model. My shred idol, even on mobile fights seems to increase DPS over the rip idol… this also means I believe the ARP theory as well but I am still a little uneasy swapping all my agility gems to ARP as I use some of that gear to tank.

So if anyone could give me a little insight to this fight I would really appreciate it. Each week we get closer to downing him at 3 minutes and getting my damage higher will go a long way to help us achieve it.

18 Responses to A cry for help to other Druid Kitties out there.

  • Kal says:

    If you’re getting storm power and holding it, you’re doing it wrong. It’s as simple as that. If you want to get the 3-minute kill reliably, what you (and every melee) needs to do is run out and give it to the spellcasters.

    Otherwise there’s not a lot to do. Get in the haste buffs whenever possible, but know that you get the least out of it compared to the other melee. For the same reason you pwn on Vezax you’re going to suck a bit on Hodir.

    But seriously – the storm cloud buff should go to ranged. At best you’ll be able to do 8k DPS. At worst most mages, locks and elemental shamans can do 10k, and should be closer to 14-15k.

  • Runycat says:

    Essentially what Kal said, but one other thing: if you’re going with a Shred/FB rotation, using Idol of the Ravenous Beast, and socketing straight AGI, I’d argue that you’re doing it wrong (or, at least, you’re unnecessarily gimping your DPS). Generally speaking, if you’re below 250 or so ArP, you want to be using the Idol of Worship. You’re going to get a little more bang for your buck if you socket ArP (Fractured Scarlet Rubies, Puissant Twilight Opals, Grim Toll, Mjolnir’s Runestone, Hearty Rhino) and then use the Idol of the Ravenous Beast. Is that going to make or break you on Hodir? No, probably not. It’s more of a general suggestion.

    Does your tank kite Hodir over to a toasty fire? It’s pretty clutch for getting an easy 3 minute kill. It also has the added benefit of you not having to move around every time you get Biting Cold, allowing you to stand around and do more of the usual (dodging falling ice, of course).

  • Vallen says:

    Before I give generalized advice, a few questions would help me answer better:

    1) I assume this is for 10 man, but it should be confirmed (since you said 9th on dps)
    2) Whats your raid setup? How many ranged/melee
    3) How many healers/tanks are you using?
    4) When you said you got the “freeze” what is that in reference to, frost nova or ice block?

    After reading your post a few times, I am feeling like this is 25 man and if so, it seems like an odd hard mode to start with vs the logical FL -> XT -> Thorim to start.

    Also I have to reiterate Runy’s comments in that you can’t gem half arp and half agil and expect the same results. If you’re a full time cat, you should gem for it. You won’t get maximum dps with a half cat/bear gemming scheme.

  • Jacemora says:

    @Vallen

    1) 25 Man
    2) I don’t remember the setup entirely but we have a good spread of classes
    3) 1 tank, I think 6 healers
    4) The reports online call it freeze, pretty sure it is when my feet are frozen to the ground.

    We are not trying it in hard mode, we are getting closer each week to the hard mode achievement without specifically trying. Isn’t Hodir hard mode just killing him in enough time to get the rare cache? Maybe I have my hard mode facts mixed up. Also, According to TankSpot this is one of the first Hard Modes people should try… dunno.

    I understand the gemming issues but I am comparing my performance against myself across all the fights not other classes, it just so happens that compared to other melee on Hodir I am not doing as well compared to them on lets say some other melee friendly fight.

    @Runy
    I have over 350 ArP so I use the shred idol on stationary fights. On run out, run around fights I go with the rip idol.

    Thanks for the info guys, it sounds like we just need to approach the fight a little differently to tweak up our DPS more.

  • Kal says:

    It’s one of the first hardmodes you should try, but XT and FL4 are definitely easier. Also, I would state pretty definitively that you’re not going to just luck into it; the difference between a 3-minute and 4-minute kill are pretty substantial in terms of strategy.

    In any case, the big thing here is the haste buff. You get a lot from the crit buff, but others get at least as much from the crit buff and far, far more from the haste buff – and some can get bonuses from the mage singing flame debuff too. Hodir also rotates around a lot, there’s a lot of movement, and in general it’s just not that advantageous for a feral. The big advantage is that you can shift to break a freeze, which is nice. But that’s about it.

  • Googol says:

    when you get the crit buff, try to use shred primarily, rake sparingly

    Also always use berserk when you have the crit buff

    Also make sure you are getting storm power, not the storm cloud (stacks that are given to other people).

    I get 9-12k dps on this fight, depending on factors like crit buff uptime, tank’s TPS, mounds, etc.

  • Jacemora says:

    Lets just say that currently due to the nature of how we do the fight I can’t optimize my DPS… I like that.

    /agree with not hitting the 3 minutes by accident, However it doesn’t sound like we have to make many adjustments to reach it. The Tank Spot strategy looks pretty solid.

  • Vallen says:

    Jace,

    Hodir is one of the earlier hard modes to attempt but it’s not as easier as some of the other ones. Thats why I wasn’t quite sure if it was 10 or 25. Most people wouldn’t do it until later in the progression path.

    If it’s the frost nova, you can shift out of it, it really shouldn’t affect your dps

    As Googol said, save your berserk for when you have a full crit buff (preferably not close to a flash freeze). Thats’ really the only thing thing that will help to jack your dps up. Also fixing your gemming ;)

  • Jacemora says:

    I would fix my gemming but I want to be uber as I tank daily Heroics for badges of Triumph :P

  • lily says:

    I can fully understand the desire to gem appropriately for tanking – but maybe you can still consider some of the arpen gems. What I mean to say is that sometimes, seperate items for your sets are better – even if it means letting one set slip a little. In this case, heroics can easily be tanked in lesser gear than what you have access to – so as you find upgrades, consider saving your old leather for tanking. Keeping the gear separate helps even if you’re tanking difficult content, and probably even moreso if you are, because the requirement on your health pool becomes much higher then.

    I know, ultimately when I cannot decide which set to upgrade I just take my agi and call it good. I have the advantage of raiding with another druid and while our gear is not exactly the same, it’s close enough. I gem about half the time with arpen and use arpen food. He doesn’t tank and takes all the arpen he can. The difference between us is around 500 dps. I do have the advantage of a grim toll trinket right now, so it’s most likely a little more than that that I sacrifice. As you can imagine, I’ve been closely considering my upgrades and what sets to take them for.

    Also, I’m glad you brought this up because I’ve noticed a DPS loss as well for me and other melee on Hodir. The hints from others doing hard mode are pretty handy. I have to imagine that avoiding the freezes and breaking out the NPCs is part of that, however I hadn’t considered the buffs involved. So, thanks (everyone).

  • Jacemora says:

    Yeah, without an ArP trinket I am weary of going with T8 all ArP and making my T7 my tanking set. Don’t get me wrong, I am tanking in T7.5 helm, legs, and shoulders, but I like having my Chest and Hands on double duty.

    I just think in my current situation without an ArP trinket the difference with just some gemming isn’t large enough to worry about.

  • Melthu says:

    Guys, doing 6.2k dps on Hodir cannot be attributed to gemming Agi over ArPen. Hell, ask nightcrowler himself, the difference between full Agi gearing and full ArPen gearing is in the neighborhood of 40-50 dps.

    Jace, my guess is that you’re getting a lot of downtime on Hodir. I mean, there are no forced dps stops in the fight so your dps should be at worst equal to what you see on Ignis. Are your priests Mass Dispelling melee when Hodir casts Freeze? That’s a huge help so you don’t waste time and possibly energy to shift out. Also, are you certain you were getting Storm Power and not Storm Cloud? It’s unlikely that you’d get Storm Cloud 4 times in 1 fight and a rogue would get 3, but it’s possible.

    The tricky thing about this fight is that white attacks become very important. White damage is the only damage that’s affected by the beams (well, other than increased OOC proc rate) and Storm Power decreases the importance of Rake, making white damage a larger portion of your total dps. Other than staying within range for white attacks and saving Berserk for when you have Storm Power, there’s really no tricks to the fight. The only other thing I can think of is to make absolutely sure you get as much uptime on Storm Power’ed Rips as possible. It’s worth it to throw a 3CP Rip if your Storm Power is about to fade instead of doing a 5CP Rip without Storm Power. I would also suggest overwriting a non-Storm Power’ed Rip with a new one when you first get Storm Power.

  • Zombiee says:

    I’ve ended up tanking him every time on both my 10 and 25 man so my advice comes without 1st hand knowledge behind it. But I would suggest treating the fight the same way you treat Thaddius’ gimmick.

    Pool your combo points (within reason of course) so that you can apply a fresh rip and rake the moment you gain the storm power buff. Use every cooldown you can during the storm power time as mentioned, but make sure to re-apply (read: clip) both your rake and rip before the buff falls off. Using the add-on “Tell me When” or something similar to monitor when you have it and when it’s about to wear off makes this much easier. Use the time between to maintain your roar, mangle (I have no friendly warrior doing it for me) and shred like there’s no tomorrow.

    My reasoning behind this is that any dot applied with a personal buff or debuff should benefit from it for the duration of the dot even if the buff falls off. If rip is applied before you have Storm Power, then the full duration would not benefit even if you got the buff 1 sec later. With approx 60% crit rate and the low number of rips available in 3 minutes, this should be a significant change to your dmg.

    Liberal use of kitty sprint and kitty charge to get/spread the buff and get back to the boss is just a bonus of the fight.

    If my understanding of the mechanic is flawed or you’re already doing something similar, please let me know so that I can be properly mocked. In addition to being shamed, I can re-evaluate my plan for when I can convince another tank to tank it.

    PS – For clarity: To the best of my testing, the buff ‘Storm Power’ is a self-only, fixed duration buff increasing crit dmg for you and has no benefit to others. ‘Storm Cloud’ is a shorter duration buff on you that causes ‘Storm Power’ on those close to you (6 stacks I believe, with the stack slowly refreshing) but gives you personally ZERO in the way of any bonuses. The icon is the same and the tooltip similar, even misleading.

  • Oso says:

    I actually favor crit over arp on this fight, as we kitties only gain from the increased crit buff, and obviously the haste beam. In my experience, increased crit on my gear leads to more HUGE crits for the 50% of the 3 minutes you’ll have the storm power buff.

    I’m usually consistently around 9k before we call wipes (if the timer’s not looking good) and have finished fights at 11k.

    the important parts of getting great DPS here is maximizing time on target and efficient use of berserk (preferably with a trinket procced and/or wild magic potion). I also try to prioritize shredding over keeping up rake while I have the crit buff.

    Our most recent kill’s WoL @ http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ttIo4oaGU8kvgt9Y/sum/damageDone/

  • Melthu says:

    Putting up Rake is a bad idea during Storm Power because it can’t crit. Drop it from your rotation completely and focus on those Shreds.

  • Zombiee says:

    Gah, that was a considerable oversight on my part concerning rake and crits. Thank you.

    It would only be important to keep up during the periods of the fight where rip is not ticking to make sure your shred benefits from a bleed (My 10man is odd in that I’m the only one with any sort of bleed effect). In an ideal fight with high storm power and rip uptime, dropping it sounds like a great idea.

  • oakayam says:

    Remember as a druid you can powershift out of freeze :P ( yup, dust off that TBC macro )

  • Jacemora says:

    yeah, I am going to have to do that.

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